Episode 47: Beyond the Hustle: Preventing Burnout in Tech Leadership – Nicolas Cava

Welcome back to another episode of SphereCast, Sphere's biweekly conversation with entrepreneurs, business, and tech leaders, offering practical advice on technology, innovation, and leadership.

I'm your host, Adin Heric, and today we are diving into a topic that hits close to home for a lot of tech leaders: burnout. Our guest, Nicolas Cava, has been through it all, from founding multiple startups, scaling teams to hypergrowth, leading engineering at companies like Zendesk, and now coaching founders and CTOs on how to scale sustainably without burning out.

Nicolas has a unique blend of experience. He's seen the beauty and the cost of building fast. And today, we'll unpack what it really takes to teach tech teams without losing yourself along the way.

Nicolas, welcome to the SphereCast. Great to have you here.

So Nico, let's start from the beginning. For those who might not know you yet, could you give a quick snapshot of your journey so far and what led you to where you are today?

Yeah. So to summarize, I'm originally from France, so I started my career there. But the thing is that I started my career during the first the first the financial crisis from 2008, you know. So already I started the hard way, I would say. So I had to move to Paris, but I was from the South of France, to land my first job. So it was not easy already.

And earlier in my journey, I started to learn how to be creative, adapt, I think. And also, at the same time, I was already an entrepreneur, building startups on the side. But I had to provide for my family, so here I was. And then I decided to move to Canada, so I immigrated here. And I discovered snow, winter. That was fun.

And I kept like going on on my tech journey. So I started as a developer, but I went quickly as a tech leader and then a people manager. And so I kind of became very passionate about helping people, personal development, eventually understood that leadership come also from coaching, serving others. And all of this led me to really dig into the world of self-awareness, understanding who you are, who we are, our identity, what we want to do, our needs, etcetera.

And yeah, I think that's also led me to all the experience I had through the difficulties, challenges, and burnout I had also through my life and what I became today and who I want to serve and how also. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that's a that's a good, you know, bridge to to the talk that we're going to have today, I think, for our audience, right? So I know some people who have one burnout, but I don't know too many who have two. And, you know, during our our, you know, get to know each other call, you said you you have had it twice. So I would love to know, and the audience definitely would love to know, you know, what were the the moments that you made you realize you hit that point, and how did you, you know, recover from that? You know, and how did it look like to you?

Yeah, it's a good question. So the first during the first burnout, I never experienced that. So I did not really understood the the the, you know, the feelings in my body, the emotions going through my head, what happened around around me that actually could have like helped me like understand identifying that I was burning out.

The second time, actually, I I knew all of that. I identified the feelings, I identified the emotion, etcetera. I was aware that I was burning out, but I I decided to keep pushing through because I had to. I had responsibilities for my family, for my job. And for some reason, I decided that sacrificing myself was a good choice to do at this time. I learned about that, but yeah, the second time I burned out while knowing that I was burning out, unfortunately.

So I would say that the first thing that happens when you burn out, when you start burning out So first of all, it's a multi-level process, right? It's not like you pass from zero to burnout. It's like burning out level one, level two, level three, and there is multiple levels of burnout. Sometimes it takes longer to recover. It depends on the person. It's very contextual, situational. That's the first thing.

And I think one of the first symptoms that the first thing you can identify is how you are with your environment around you. Like, are you like on the edge? Are you like taking things personally? Are you being more maybe toxic unintentionally? Are you have toxic behavior? Are you like replying harshly? I mean, you know, this kind of how you react actually to the little things in your daily life, because when you are burning out, actually every detail, everything that happened in your life, even the tiniest things are truly like so much for you that you react like in a way that is unusual for you. So that's how I I see it is that you start to feel on the edge, you know, really like affecting your environment. I was affecting my kids, my partner at this time, my friends, my family, too, in the way I I was less present for them. So that would be the first symptoms, the first way to identify it.

Yeah. So the change the change happens basically in the behavior towards other people and situations, right, as as as you said. Interesting.

So let's go to the to the tech culture and, you know, because tech culture, you know, is still glorifying the grit, as you said it. "I I wanted to keep on doing it, all-nighters, back-to-back sprints, you know, ship it now, fix it later." So why do you think that's so main ingrained in it? And And, you know, how can leaders start changing that culture within their teams, right? Yeah.

So first thing, I will maybe share a contrarian a contrarian take about it, but I don't think the culture should change totally. I think it's great to have this "ship it now, fix it later" culture for the product or for the business. What is really dangerous is to apply this culture to the people.

So that's the the tricky balance is how can you keep building the product the way we build, because I think it's really efficient to ship as fast as possible and learn from that, get feedback earlier and pivot, because that's the way I think you build a business that is very efficient and and and prevent you from burning out, actually, because you, yeah, you get results faster. But the the issue is that people just maybe because it's simple to think like this or they are in their comfort zone, they just apply this way to build a startup to their personal life, to their team, to their people around them. And that's the issue.

So the goal is really to keep building businesses and products this way, but at the same time to prevent you from becoming like this, if it makes sense. So it means like you you have to to early, when you start to build a business, a startup, you have already to put in place systems that prevent you from working endlessly, like being self-aware about, as I said, the feelings and emotions going through. In a daily basis, really a daily basis, like adapt, revise what you do and how you behave with your work and your surrounding, and and and make sure that you have like non-negotiables in your life.

So, and it applies to your your team, too. Like one of the non-negotiables I have with my team is that never blame, for example. It's like you you have the right and you are authorized to fail. You're authorized to make mistakes. You are human. We have to be vulnerable, too. And as a leader, I think it's really important to be human, show your weaknesses, communicate about them, because first it it helps you. It feels good to say that, because you will find people that feel the same, so you will normalize your your struggles. But also, what what what it does is that it creates a psychological safety for your team. And your team, at the in return, will also be vulnerable and express that they are tired, fatigued, etcetera.

And so that's data you can use to make sure that you sustain this pace, because startups will always be fast. You you will never like there is no way you go through around that. If you build a startup, you you will have to assume that there will always will you will always have work, will always be fast. So the goal is really to build non-negotiables with yourself and your team and make sure that you, around these constraints, you build a culture that is able to ship fast for your startup, if it makes sense. That's the way I will approach it. Yeah.

All right. Yeah. Definitely understand that. So let's go maybe into how to cure burnout, right? So so in our talk, you said also that delegation could be a pretentious a prevention tool. So so what does that mean in practice, Nico?

So the the first thing is that, especially as a founder, you want to be in control, right? You are passionate about what you you are doing. You started maybe alone or maybe with a co-founder or two. So the feeling of creativity you gain from that, the entrepreneurship, you know, the it's like you feel in control. You you do sales, you do marketing, you do everything. It's there is nothing stopping you. The the the the sky is the limit, right?

The issue is that as soon as you as soon as you as you start to to scale, it becomes hard. It becomes a burden because, eventually, you need really to to focus on one, two areas because it's becoming too much. At the beginning, it's simple. You are pre-product-market fit. But after that, after market fit, you start to your brain is needed elsewhere. Your brain is needed on a particular area of your business. And and you you you you keep trying to have this mindset of being in control. So you may you may be micromanaging, micro-editing what your team is doing, etcetera. And you have also a difficulty to trust because it's your baby, you know? It's something you build from from scratch.

So you you you really want the team to follow your vision, and so you tend to be there in you in in their operation daily, and that's the issue. And and this this is where you need to learn to delegate. This is where you need to learn that your role as a leader is to actually to serve your team. Because actually you the customer is not anymore the person you need to focus on. You need to focus on your team, and your team will focus on your customers. So actually, your customer as founder is your team.

So because burning out really is about like is about like keep doing these things that you used to do as an early-stage founder and and and and at a scale that is not sustainable anymore for you, if it makes sense. So you have to you have to be you have to learn the skills on how to delegate properly, to share this vision, to make sure everyone is aligned as much as possible, because the more you align your team, the more you will be able to delegate to them, the more you will be able to sleep at night knowing that your team has your back.

So yeah, if you want to claim back hours is really the best way. Like, I don't know, you are doing marketing 10, 15 hours a week, your brain is better at doing business development or sales, well, you need to delegate. That's the best way and the fastest way to claim back these 15 hours a week, for example. Yeah.

Interesting put there. And I can definitely say it is definitely true also when I look back. I worked at a couple of startups, and and delegation, I I I saw that especially the the, you know, the founders, as you said it, you know, have really hard time letting go of their so-called baby, if I may put it, you know. So, which which I understand, which I understand. But I think I don't know who quoted it and who said it, but it's it's really true that the best companies, startups, and scale-ups are the ones that actually can function without the CEO, which means that, you know, the CEO has put teams in place to function without him, as you said it. If you put out the vision, alignment, they know where to sail to, even without you. And I think, you know, that that's re- really something that I I want to give also to the, you know, starting founders who need to let go and delegate.

It is liberating, I think. I'm not speaking for myself, but I saw it with the founders. And I see you're nodding as well, Nico. So, yeah. I don't know if you want to say something on that, but I just commented as well. Please please go ahead.

Yeah, I'm glad you relate, and I think many people will relate, too. And it's it's really most most problems come from the mindset, you know? And then when you figure out the mindset, you can just implement the system and you will find out that delegating is really a a a benefit for everyone. It give opportunities also to your team for growth.

But what I want to what I want to add to what you said, I had a manager at Zendesk. I remember one of the thing he said every time was, "I I make everything I can to make myself redundant." And that's really beautiful because it's kind of poetic in a way, self-sacrifice as a leader. But also, it means that, technically speaking, it mean that you you are building a culture, a system that your team can actually just operate operate fine without you. Like, imagine you you you you are not there for three months, and you come back and nothing changed, actually. Everything is working well. Everyone is aligned on the goals, etcetera. And and I think it's Every time I I I think about this, because as a leader, I think if you if you really if you if you are able to build this, it's so powerful. And also, it's so It's a North Star vision, you know? Like, the more you tend for that, the more I think you become effective as a leader and a founder.

Yeah, really really powerful take he had. Mm.

Yes. Nico, I have a question on that as well, because I saw I saw in my experiences as well that I came in different stages with startups. So, I I was really with startups, as you said it, you know, three-people team and, you know, let's try to build out something. But I was also in in in bigger VC already, you know, founded startups, Series A, B, C, and I saw that some founders were not suited for that size of of a business, you know? And I think they're doing themselves sometimes a little bit, you know, they try to grind and still to do, but it's a little bit too big for you, and it's not what you wanted anymore because actually you were the the product guy, for example, and now the product has become such a huge thing that you cannot just control it anymore, for example, right?

So, I'm happy you're nodding, because I think I think you have maybe some shared experiences. So, please, you know, elaborate, and maybe on your experience there as well, what you saw.

It's I I don't think we talk about this enough, because I think there is maybe some maybe not shame, but I don't think people want to talk about it because they maybe see this as a failure, you know? Like, why I was so good at being an early early-stage founder, and then I reach a Series B and then, I don't know, I feel I feel less good at what I'm doing or less energized and something must be wrong with me. I I must overcome this, I must learn, I must And I think there is some kind of, you know, like hurting yourself in the process, and so you don't want to talk about it because you you you want to overcome this in a way.

But I I can tell from my personal experience, but also from CEOs I saw in my career, that actually, as you said, I think it's totally fine and totally legitimate to be a great leader for a particular stage of a business and not being so great after that, or or before that, because it's not because you lack skills. Well, you have different skills. You have You don't need more skills as you grow in a through the stages, you need different skills.

So maybe your skills are just better at early-stage and not as better later during a a late late scale late growth phase, and that's totally fine. But also your identity, personality, your energy. You know, there is this concept, Japanese concept called Ikigai, where you have to find your what what combined your energy, where you pull your energy from, your skills, what what the world needs. And so I think when you understand that you you personally, for example, I understood like after my last jobs that I was not energized by late growth scale-ups anymore. I'm really energized by early-stage because I'm versatile, I like I'm curious about a lot of things. I like when it's very fast, when you when you when you experiment a lot, you take risks. And this you find it a lot in early stage.

And so I I started to assume that, and and actually it became part of my identity. But also you will see a lot of tech companies where you will see like the CEO replaced by the board because they they kind of reached a new stage and they decided they want some a different profile. And in the past, I was like, "Yeah, that's really terrible for the CEO that was in place. I was happy to work with him, so why?" And actually, I think it makes sense. And as a CEO, maybe you you have to understand that maybe one day you will have to find someone to replace you, and and that's totally totally normal. And you should not be like ashamed of that. You should not find this as a weakness, in my opinion.

No. No, definitely not. Definitely not. Okay. Well said, well said, I would say, Nico. So to go into maybe the the next topic I would love to discuss with you is, you know, you went through multiple companies, multiple sizes, as you said. I I learned now also that you don't want to be in the later stage of of the product or a company, which I also can relate to, honestly. So on on on scaling without breaking, basically.

So you've managed teams that went through 500% growth, so, but, you know, what specific systems, rituals, rules, processes did you had as leadership that helped your team perform under pressure while keeping burnout, you know, at bay, right? So did you learn that only before or did you learn that after your own burnout? And, you know, what did you learn from it and what what can what what advice can you give to our audience?

I think I I I I really learn on the on the field in the sense that I go and I learn. That's how I operate. I go through burst of doing something and then I learn after that. I adapt quickly, and that's how I see that. It's not like I do something for months and then I learn after that, if it makes sense.

So it's it's really hard to pinpoint exactly when something pivoted in my mind that changed the way I led my teams, for example, through hyper-scale as I experimented. But one thing that was really a pattern across all the teams I led and all the companies, and actually actually is very rare, unfortunately, for various reasons, is, again, building psychological safety, being a servant leader. Because you know, and I experimented that through my second burnout, especially this year when I was in recovery. I I had a very difficult year, and I saw that I was really fast at recovering from that compared at my previous challenges.

Why? Because it's all about mindset, actually. It's all about it's all about being safe to just express what you are going through and finding support around you and things that you can go forward and normalize what you are going through. And all of this comes from psychological safety, having having a leader that actually has your back, is also going through the same thing. And and so you you don't end up like hiding all of this, so you don't end up hurting yourself.

And what I learned is that, by building this psychological safety, this culture, it's not that people are like yes, maybe there is some resilience aspect, but for me, resilience is about how fast you recover from it, you know? So what I saw is that my team were very quickly at recover from like step backs. And that's really what differentiate It's really culture, leadership, and this psychological aspect, safety aspect, and how fast your team is recovering from from hyper-scale like this. It's like, okay, we have to go fast, we have to break things, we have to scale fast, fine, but we are here together to learn from that quickly. There is no shame, there is no blame. So we learn fast. The feedback loops are really fast, too. So you learn very fast, there is no tension, conflicts, because everyone is like going through the same things and everyone is open about it.

I don't know if it makes sense, but that's I think one of the most powerful tool as a as a leader when you go through a scale phase, yeah, is really the non-negotiable again, to be honest. Mm.

And how do you make sure that, you know, if I make call it like if if I would you be in your team, you know, how can I imagine that being like on on, you know, in the team, you know, lived, right? So let's say like I I want to go and say like something has become a little bit over my head, right? What would you, you know, expect that person to do? And I'm talk, you know, is the door always open to go to you? You know, how do you make sure that that, you know, that culture is lived like that? Because I understand what you mean, you know, when you have like a culture of grinders, grinders, grinders, you don't want to be the first one that, you know, says like, "Hey, this is becoming a little bit too much for me," right? So how do you break break that? And it has to come, you know, I always say like, you know, culture comes from top to down. So, you know, how do leaders make sure there is always an open door, basically, you know, that they that, you know, people can express what they're going through?

I think it's really on the the minor things every day. It's really a combination of many things. The way you the way you behave, the way you talk, the way you the fact that you you you remain consistent. Consistency is really key. If you are consistent, people will feel safe with you, will trust you, first. And also about having empathy and asking question, being a coach, actually, like So what I do first, imagine I start tomorrow with a new team. My goal is really to put as many feedback loops as possible for my team to reach out naturally or intentionally. So we can talk about weekly one-on-ones, for example, and there will be casual, focused. Like I will just asking question, asking question, and my goal is really to listen more and try to help my team to find solution by themselves and never judge, never blame, really acting like a coach.

I don't know if you worked with a coach or a therapist in the past, but they never judge you, right? They they keep asking questions, and eventually you find your own answer. So that's really the way I see it, and and you feel really confident to to share, because you you feel you can be vulnerable. So it's really about being consistent with what you preach in a daily basis, being able to identify also the minor things that people do, you know, and praise that too, praise on Slack or whatever, like the minor thing every day every day.

Because even someone who is like failing a lot because they are going through difficult moment in their life, there always there is always something to be proud of, to praise, and you just have to identify that. And if you do, they will focus on that, and they will rebuild from that, too. So it's really like emotional intelligence a lot. Being emotional intelligent really important too. Yeah, I would say.

Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks thanks for that answer.

Let's go to the next topic, Nico, the the most hyped topic of 2025, for sure: AI, right? So, you said in our call AI anxiety is kind of the growing challenge under the leadership. So how do you think, you know, how is AI and the and the uncertainty it brings, you know, changing the emotional load on tech leaders and and teams today?

Yeah, AI anxiety is really a thing. Like, even myself, like several months ago, I was going through AI anxiety. I was like I was still trying to find a job before I restarted my business, and I was like, "Yeah, so many things AI is disrupting. I don't know what I need to do next to not be, you know, worthless anymore in the market. I was Where where I can position myself?" So I was like going through this. It was really hard. I was reading a lot of article about companies laying off people because of AI. True or not, you know, it just create more anxiety.

And that that's something that is I think really important today, and also why many people are burning out, because they fear they fear that it will uh it will be a danger for their future, and I I understand that. It's really hard. Everything is going very fast. So first, you you have to acknowledge that. Second, what I my I think the pivot point in my mindset is that I understood that the economic economical factors around AI today is are so strong that myself alone, I cannot do anything about it. So the only way I can do what I can do is to adapt as much as possible.

And maybe tomorrow AI will not exist, you know. I still talk to people that say, "Yeah, what you are preaching preaching will age like milk," or whatever. Yeah, maybe. I don't I don't really it does it doesn't really matter to me. AI is just a tool. Tomorrow we will have another tool, right? But I I really believe in stoicism, for example, and stoicism tell us like we should focus on what we can control and not on what we cannot control. And what I can control clearly is how fast AI is going, how many billions are being injected into AI. And so my best guess today is to try to adapt as much as possible.

So yeah, I was like, okay, let's redefine what it means to be a leader, to be a startup founder today, in a world where imagine AI is doing most of my work, yeah? So I was like I remember remember about a law called the Moravec's law that says that machine and humans have different strengths and weaknesses. And it was like, yeah, that's really powerful actually, because what if I can just take what machine are bad at and focus only on that, right?

And so you have to identify the human skills. So conceptualization, transferable skills, knowledge, the way you can conceptualize many things and making creating a vision with it and creating like a concept. And let the machine just execute this vision for you. That's it. Like you use AI to parallelize yourself. Like what I am doing today, for example, is that what I am doing something like creative, like creating content for my LinkedIn audience, I have three, four maybe background background AI agent working for me. And I have no shame, no shame doing that, because in the end of the day, they they I win so much time.

And at the end, I will review what they are doing, right? I'm not just asking Cursor, for example, to to to to write a new feature and publish it to production. No. First, I'm involved in the prompt engineering and context engineering to help Cursor, for example, execute as best as possible. But at the end, also, Cursor will just create a branch or propose a change, and I will review it. So humans are still in the loop. We are not being replaced. We are being multiplied. We are still in the loop, obviously. We cannot just expect AI to push something in production like without hallucination. But it it just save you so much time, and I think we just have to learn how to adapt to it.

Yeah. Definitely. All right. Share quite a lot what you said there, so as as every new technology that comes out every few years, right, in the beginning, in the first two years, it it it gets really, really overhyped, in my opinion, as well. And in the end, it's, you know, it doesn't mean that you need to use this this newest technology. It can also mean that actually, you know, for example, automation is is the one for you, robotics is the one for you, and not the AI, you know. So it it's in the end, it's about business efficiencies, right? Winning winning time, right? That's that's what it's all about, right?

It depends on your goals, actually, right? If you build a business, obviously, you build a business to make revenue. So you want efficiency. But if you are like doing something for passion, you may not want efficiency. You may just want to do something that passionate you. You know, like coding, it's a passion for many. I I I I do I do code still, and I love it. And there is creativity on that and it's like an art sometimes. And I don't I don't think you should stop doing that if you love that, but you just do it as a part of a passion project or something you want to learn on the side. But if you really want to build a business, your goal is to be as efficient as possible, because everyone is doing that. So if you don't do that, you will have less opportunities to compete.

So it depends really of the goals you have. And and again, if AI is not the tool tomorrow, yeah, what what the worst that can happen is that you learn a lot about a particular field and you move into the next one, like I did for the blockchain years ago when it was Web3, blockchain was the hype, you know? I learned a lot, and I moved into the next thing. And that's it. And I become better at it. I become better at other things because of because of that. So, yeah. Don't be attached to tools. Yeah.

All right. Let's go to the ending questions, I would say, Nico. So currently, you are fractional CTO. You work as fractional CTO, and, you know, how does this model help startup founders or early-stage companies avoid burnout both in terms of workload and mental space?

So I would say maybe the model of fractional CTO, like the traditional model, even if it's really like a new concept, does not really focus so much about personal development, mental space, claiming back hours, because you will see a fractional CTO as a pure CTO, like really helping you with a roadmap, with product strategy, technological strategy, hiring, raising funds, etcetera. Yeah, obviously, that's really part of what I'm doing. That's my core skills.

But because of my experience through burnouts, my passion about personal development, mental health, and the way that I want to talk about all of these things vulnerably publicly to help people, I I I found kind of a niche where I combine combine both, because through my experience also talking to founders, yeah, we talk about technical things, obviously, but many times quickly the discussion go around like how they are overwhelmed, how they are going through personal challenges, how they are like doubting themselves, etcetera. And I was like, "Yeah, I can help with that, too, with the combination of both." I can be just a partner in building a business, you know, in the general sense, not only technical, but also accompanying you in a humane a human human a kind of, yeah, basis, I would say.

So fractional CTO, you can see it as really a part-time tech leader for early-stage startup founders mostly, because most most of them are not technical themselves, I would say. So you don't hire a full-time CTO, because you don't have the budget. And even I don't recommend hiring a full-time whatever before you hit product-market fit, because you will just, I think, run burn your runway very quickly. And today, especially with AI, you can achieve product-market fit as being a non-technical founder with the support of a fractional CTO, or even alone if you are curious and learn fast enough, I don't know, but so that's where I think the fractional CTO can really help.

So it's helping like guiding important tech decisions, tech plans, costly mistakes also that you will maybe do. How many like MVP I see that are really like taking months and months and months to build, where they should take weeks or one month or two max, and just focusing on the core problem. And and you end up with a lot of technical debt that is really slowing you down after product-market fit when you try to scale.

Yeah, and and I focus on helping people who are burning out or like overwhelmed, because I empathize with these people. So I want to help them like claiming back time so they can focus on what they love, and not technical like burden. They want to build a business, talk to customers, doing sales. So yeah, I I just I just join. I take all these burnout burden out, and I help them like being a a a partner for them, not just like a simple freelancer, you know, that just executes. Yeah, that's how I see it.

Yeah, definitely. Cool. Nico, that was one of the last questions that I have. Was really a good one. I have one last one to wrap it up, right? So as in your current role and, of course, in all of the past roles that you have worked, you have met a lot of tech leaders, CTOs yourself, founders, of course, many early-stage. But who is the one person you can think of that would be a great guest for SphereCast, somebody that, you know, can continue this conversation around sustainable leadership, growth, tech innovation, digital transformation, for example? Who's that one person you're thinking of now?

Yeah, top of mind really uh yeah. It's a It's a It's a good question. It's a really good question. I I met many people interested by the topic, but it's still rare, especially people in tech or technical people that are really like dedicated into sustainability or mental health, etcetera. I don't know, it's still a shame, especially in the tech industry. The fact that there is not enough women also in in in the roles like technical roles also does not help, because we we need more vulnerability, empathy, etcetera.

So top of mind, I would say, I would recommend talking or inviting Tony Jamous. He's actually the CEO and founder of Oyster. Oyster is a company that is in the remote workspace, you know, trying to solve remote work, so talent acquisition and all of this, onboarding, etcetera. I I'm I'm less into this kind of field right now, but for years I was really into remote work, asynchronous work. Right now, I'm focusing more on something else, but and I learned about Tony at this time. And when you see his content on social media, it's really refreshing. I'm really happy that a CEO at this at his stage are still is still talking about all these topics and trying to spread the word. So I really recommend Tony Jamous, yeah, really one of the leaders I would invite you I would invite in your podcast.

We will we will definitely get in touch. So please introduce me, and I will definitely get get after Tony, I would say. All right, cool. Nico, thanks very much for having you on the SphereCast. Was really a great session. I hope and I know, let me put like that, that our audience will learn a lot. And it it it was a it was an interesting topic to talk about, very valuable, I think. Never done it before on SphereCast, at least. And, yeah. So I would just say, we never know if we speak again on another episode or an episode with Tony, maybe, even. So let's keep let's keep let's keep the, you know, the flow going and communication going between us. Nico, I want to thank you just from Sphere and SphereCast one more time, and have a good evening.

Thank you for the invitation. It was really amazing to talk with you and having this opportunity to talk about this topic. And so thank you for having me. And yeah, I hope I could have helped maybe one person today. I mean, I'm really happy for that if I did that. So thanks again for the platform, and yeah, hopefully we can talk again later in the future.

Definitely. You're welcome, Nico. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye. Thank you.

Just going to stop the recording.